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Wednesday, July 2, 2008

How to get "bounced by Z"

....first what you do is not toe the party line. My comment are as per "Jill of the Amazing Wolverine Tribe" -- I've always posted that way on "Z's" blog -- not really "hiding" i.d. as readers of my "com" box have figured out. Here was the following colloquey. My comments in white. His in red:

  1. “[Hardly. The “I’m taking my ball and bat and going home!” approach is not necessary. However, I would rather people not post if they are going to drag entries down endless rabbit holes of bickering. – Fr. Z]” [This was in regards someone else's post who wasn't buying the party line.]

    Fr. Z. with all due respect you do not “call” people who buy your party line when they get out of line. [You must have an image of me sitting at my computer, repeatedly hitting the refresh button so that I can analyze every comment. Nope.] For instance (just to pick one) AnAnonymousSeminarian can say deprecating things like “girl altar boys” and that’s just hunky dory with you. [Well.. I don’t personally have too much problem with that, since I don’t think the service of girls at the altar is a good idea, but I can see why some people might say that it shouldn’t be put that way.] You have said in the past on another post that “the discussion needs to go ‘x’ way.” It’s quite one thing for a practicing Catholic to be expected to toe the party line on actual doctrine. But just because something is a custom, doesn’t mean that in some cases the custom is now counterproductive. If there are enough seminarians around to serve Mass. Well and good, they should. But in parish churches there simply aren’t. Either “the laity” are equal, or they’re not. [Sure they are “equal” in terms of dignity, but they are not “identical” in their roles, either as men or women nor with the clergy.] I never notice people whining on your blog re: women helping take up the collection, or count it, or locking up when needed … all traditionally jobs of the porter. But we’ll NEVER see a comment about “all those evil misguided women helping count the collection.” Nor will we. The minor orders are simply GONE as per ‘69 or 70. Get over it. [FYI… this whole strand in this thread is now over. Rabbit hole. I am now finishing with someone griping about how unfair my blog is. Go start your own and run it the way you want.]

    In my growing up years girls were NON-EXISTENT as far as most priests were concerned. [So, we are back to someone’s personal experience being made the standard for the Church and the perspective on girls everywhere. Okay.] One of the few whose name I remember was Fr. Krimm, a Redemptorist of late and happy memory, in the parish of Our Lady of Perpetual Help in Salem, Va. in the mid-1960s. He did allow the girls to do what they could when the NO came in. He let the sodality girls bring up the gifts especially once a month. The man spent time with us, leading our sodality meetings and didn’t treat as as junior washerwomen in training. He looked after our SPIRITUAL formation. Is ironing the altar cloths a labor of love? You bet it is, and I’ve done that chore too. But it’s not the best way to attract a young girl when she might get the idea that a priest only sees women as being the only ones doing the scut work. In other words, there is nothing particularly inspiring when Fr. says “Johnny, come here while I tell you all about why incense is used and how to use it – oh, Suzie, not you, go iron with your mother.” [That’s the way it goes, I guess. Would you feel better if he made the boys go iron too? Would that have solved the problem?] [Notice it hasn't occured to him, that gee, Suzie might like to know the WHYs and WHENs even if he's not going to give her the secret handshake. Yup. It would kill him! ;-D And yeah, Maybe if Johnny took a turn at the iron, he'd appreciate what a time consuming job that is!] Fr. Krimm will forever be in my prayers for realizing that the girls had some brains and were worth spending time with too. He treated us like Mary instead of Martha. Martha is needed too, but Mary chose the better part, and some of you are denying her. If Jesus had treated women like some of you do, I don’t think I’d have kept the faith.

    Yeah, singing in a choir for girls can be nice, but not all can carry a tune. And quite a few of your posters would even deny the ones who can sing. God knows why, there being a shortage of castrati.

    [Altar girls were introduced as a liturgical abuse. Thus, it was an act of injustice against the girls. They were instrumentalized to violate the Church’s law. There are also good practical reasons why the service of girls at the altar, permitted now by law, should only be applied in very narrow circumstances and why boys should always be preferred. Furthermore, the Church’s guidelines on this stress the importance of the tradition of male service and that it is to be preferred. That’s just the way it is. Sorry. If I were pastor of your parish, you might see that I have a somewhat broader understanding of the role of women in the Church, but this is a blog, not a parish. I won’t let it be derailed.]

  2. [interesting, never a thought that maybe the girl herself felt it was an injustice...nope, musta been some evil feminazi "instrumentalizing" the girl. sheesh. If the pen isn't two inches away from the notepad perfectly parallel some people go nuts. Yeah, only one way to skin a cat.]
  3. Comment by Jill of the Amazing Wolverine Tribe — 29 June 2008 @ 5:24 pm
  4. Okay… that’s it. The last comment, now deleted, got personal. The poster is now gone from the blog. I am shutting down the combox.

    Comment by Fr. John Zuhlsdorf — 29 June 2008 @ 6:43 pm

The humorous part was this wasn't what got me bounced it was the follow on comment that he said was "personal" not that many people got to see it, but what I said was along the lines of this:

"But which parish HAVE you been the pastor of? [I further stated] The church has need of the priests in the ivory tower too. But sometimes you forget that real people would be hurt by your decisions."


So, no "F" bombs. But let's just say I have an extremely high regard for those actually IN the trenches. Even some like Fr. Blake, who don't use female servers. He, at least, has been tearing his hair out with WHAT to do with them, and knows "ironing is not the answer." And for sure he hasn't sounded the weensiest bit misogynistic.

So for anyone who's wondered, as someone else has on Fr. Ray's blog "why can't I see "Z"s blog" you've either said something like "where have you been pastor?" that he got peevish over....or he just blanket jammed your whole URL address and you just got swept up. Tant pis. For such a technowhiz I'm a little surprised he doesn't seem to realize there are infinite ways around his kludge of a lockout. My theory is, given that's the case, why bother? Whatever. I realize this post is bound to offend quite a few "Z" fans, but, "oh well" - an inquiring mind wanted to know....

Somewhere in my collection there's a recording of Pete Seeger singing "Little Boxes."

I feel a song coming on.


Adrienne said...

I rarely comment on his blog and when I do it always completly ignored.

He has some interesting news but other than that I consider him to be rather arrogant.

And, yes - just exactly where has he actually done the work of a priest?

Anonymous said...

I don't bother visiting the blog anymore. The last time i left a comment that he didn't agree with he put a picture of 'sour grapes' in the combox. I am not a big Fr. Z proponant and can't help but think the sycophantic preciousness of some bloggers in favour of Fr. Z is more about clammering to his popularity than actually having an appreciation for his manner of interacting with his readers. I also don't find a lot of humility there.

The more rad trad a person is the more they seem to whoop with delight for the 'brilliant' Fr. Z. Frankly, I thank God that I don't fall into either category.

gemoftheocean said...

Okay, I'm still up (after having slept a bit - I've developed a nasty tooth abscess (I can finally get seen by a dentist tomorrow) - and after all the ice packs tonight, it's finally starting to "relieve" itself and start to break up a little and drain out. yes, I know that can be bad too. but I stopped myself from putting an ice pick in my head!)

Anyway, I find a lot of his threads *could* be interesting...but too many of his posters constantly get away with braying against the women at the least drop of a hat.

There are many fine traditionalist priest posters Ive run across on the net, including especially Fr. Ray Blake, Fr. Tim Flanagan, Fr. John Boyle, and Fr. Sean Finnegan. - some or all of whom might consider themselves friends of "Z" but in NONE of their postings have I found any of those 4 to be in any way anti-woman. All 4 are pastors of parishes and are down in the trenches and seem to have a good feel for which battles to fight and moreover how to be practical. I just don't find "Z" very practical. And he may or may not realize it but his constant "free pass" to the boys only crowd [regards many things, not just girl servers] gets so wearing I usually don't bother reading things I might be otherwise interested in- it not being worth the pain in the ass of reading past the comments of the grown men who've never seemed to have gotten beyond the 10 year old stage. 10 is fine and normal for 10,but not 40 year olds. I've even noticed not a few males get a little exasperated by some of the comments of their fellow trad posters...virtually begging them to stop looking like asses with their anti-female remarks. Do they listen? Hell,no. They gang up on the guy.

Were I not already familiar with TLM from youth I wouldn't be the least bit inclined to want anything to do with it if the guys that posted on "Z"s blog were the main thing to go by.

Ether TLM is going to be for the whole church - [and a lot of treasure IS there] or it's going to get smothered in the crib by its own fans for taking an "our way or the highway" attitude.

swissmiss said...

You posted on his blog as Jill of the Amazing Wolverine Tribe and I missed it!???? Gosh, I have been out of things for awhile. I used to read his blog daily, but it got too high-brow for me. I only go there for specific things once in awhile any longer.

He really is a good guy...please don't ban my url for that...although it would be my first banishment ;-) He did serve as a priest in the parish I attend, but hasn't been there for a few years since he is no longer part of the diocese, but is attached to the diocese in Rome...or something like that. We can't all like chocolate ice cream, although gelato sounds good right now :) And, none of my comments on his blog were ever acknowledged, but personal e-mails sent to him were answered very promptly. Considering the amount of comments he gets, along with e-mails, I was impressed in that regard.

Oh, and you have a whole tool bench full of Snap-on-tools!!! Egads! That's what other female engineers and I used to say when there was unfair treatment...we need Snap-in-tools.

Your tooth ache sounds awful! Prayers it gets better.

Anonymous said...

Well, even if you got bounced by "Z," "T" (for Tara) still loves you anyway.

deb said...

I know nothing about father z as I have never seen his site before. But poor girl, I've had a tooth ache and man are they terrible. I hope that you feel better soon.

Kit said...

Sheesh - a bit tender, eh?

I have read his blog here and there since starting up last November, but never blogrolled it because while it is often informative, it is just a wee bit too far to the rad side of trad for me, and the combox catfights are a bit much, too.

Some of that stuff reminds me more than a little of the Beloved's self proclaimed "tradical" and "medieval" brother and wife. Accomplished Catholics, sure, but often very un-Christian in the treatment of issues and of people.

No thanks.

gemoftheocean said...

No worries Swiss. I just don't believe in banning people. Maybe if they constantly dropped the F-bomb, but no one has come close.

Yeah...I didn't often comment, but when I did I did it as "Jill" etc. figuring anyone who had noticed my combox would get the in joke.

I think I used it one other place too on someone else's blog.

The reason I didn't use gemoftheocean? 'cuz he'd bounced me last year for something similar... ;-D and no, I didn't used the f-bomb....though IIRc correctly I think I did use the term "martinet." Ha-ha..okay, that one *was* personal....

I have to say that I have the feeling if he and I worked in the same office he'd bring out the worst in me. You know, pass by his desk and put the name plate out of the shank a 1/4 inch off. Put the phone pad to the LEFT of the phone, instead of the right....I could have him ranting up a storm in the office in no time...all the while peeing myself laughing.... silently..."gee, somebody replaced all your black ink pens with blue? Who would do such a thing?"

I have to say it's the "boys club" among his commentators who are more annoying than he is. He lets them get away with murder.

Joe of St. Thérèse said...

I comment much on the Liturgical Issues, since that's something I've become very passionate about.

I see the argument against altar girls being rather simple. The complex thing is what to do with them. Whenver I'm hired as YM< I plan to form a schola with the females, as I think that is a little bit better than ironing. (I see ironing as a bit stereotypical). Or help sanctify their prayer life by allowing them to participate in the life of a contemplative.

I see both sides of the issue, as I tell my students all the time, if you don't like something there are 2 things you can do, 1. shut up, or b do something about it.

But if you're banned, don't worry about it. There are better things to worry sleep

gemoftheocean said...

Joe, I see the argument as "simple" too. :-D It was a made up custom had had its uses back in the day. Times change, and Jesus really doesn't care who hands the priest the cruet. But thanks for visiting and commenting. And future thanks for not making us iron by automatic default! :-D

[What are you going to do with the ones who can't carry a tune in a bucket?]

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